Beth Herron

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Interviewee: Beth Herron
Interviewer: Alexandria Russell
Date: September 27, 2016
Accession #: PHP 014
Length of Recording: 32:13
Sound Recording
Summary

Born in Cleveland, Ohio, Herron attended Allegheny College in Meadville, Pennsylvania where she received a Bachelor of Arts in History in 1992. Herron decided to attend the Public History Program at University of South Carolina after speaking to her undergraduate advisor, Paula Treckel. She completed her coursework from 1992 to 1995 and completed her Master’s Thesis, “The Star of Our Order: The Sons of Temperance in Antebellum South Carolina,” in 1998 under the direction of Lacy Ford and Connie Schulz. Her internship with Historic Columbia Foundation resulted in a full-time job, where Herron became the volunteer coordinator, worked in the education department, and helped to write grants. At the time of this interview, Beth Herron was serving as Associate Director of Research and Grant Development at the University of South Carolina in the Office of Research. Interview includes discussion of Herron’s experiences in the Public History Program, discussion of her thesis project and internships, her work with Historic Columbia, her career in grant writing, and a discussion of her future vision for the Public History Program.

 

Keywords

Allegheny College | Charleston, SC | Cleveland, OH | Colonial Williamsburg | Grant Writing | Historic Columbia | Internships | Museum Education

Transcript

Alexandria Russell: This is Alexandria Russell and it is September 27th, 2016.  I am interviewing Beth Herron for USC’s Public History Program Archive and we are conducting this interview in Columbia, South Carolina. Can you please state your full name for the record?

Beth Herron: Okay. My full name is Eliabeth Herron but I go by Beth.

AR:  Can you just talk a little bit about your undergraduate experience and what led you to coming here at USC?

BH:  Okay. I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio and I went to a small liberal arts college in Meadville, Pennsylvania called Allegheny College. I was a history major and initially I thought I wanted to go to law school but my dad was a lawyer and he told me not to go to law school.

[Laughter]

I was trying to decide what to do and became interested in…generally the field of public history.  There had been a student at Allegheny a couple years ahead of me named Bruce Harvey, who came here…he was one of the earlier students in the public history program here. My advisor, whose name is Paula Truckle, suggested that I come here and look at the program.  I did and I met with Connie Schulz.  I came down in the…probably the spring of 1992 before I graduated from college and I looked here and I also applied to the University of Delaware — just a regular public history program not the (Unintelligible 1:37) program and I got into both.  I had really liked Columbia. I had really liked Connie. It was a little cheaper to come here. [Laughs] Which was a plus for me — for my parents and me.  I decided to come here and I graduated from college in May of 1992. Then I started here in the fall of 1992.

AR:  It’s so interesting that you mentioned Bruce Harvey because I’m actually doing an interview with him.

BH:  Oh really.

AR: Yes.

[Laughter]

BH:  Interesting. He is older than me.  I’ve never met him.  I’ve heard his name many times because when I first started here…that’s when I went to Allegheny — you must know Bruce Harvey. [Laughs] At Allegheny, I’ve even heard about him too.  I don’t know how much older he is than me.

AR:  I think ’88 is when he graduated.

BH: From college or from here?

AR:  From here.

BH:  From here…that means that he probably graduated from Allegheny about ’85.

AR:  He is a photographer now.

BH:  Oh is he. Where does he live?

AR:  In New York. Upstate…

BH: Upstate New York. Bruce Harvey is one the reasons on why I’d come here just because I guess he stayed in touch with Dr. Truckle and had a positive experience here.

AR:  Take me back to the fall of ’92, what was your beginning experience and who were some of your professors besides Dr. Schulz?

BH:  Gosh, I’m trying to remember what classes I even had that semester…I mean I had Marsha Shanot for her historic sites…I think that was the semester I took that class. I definitely had Connie the first semester. I had Bob Weyeneth, who just started the program too.  In fact, he and Connie co-taught the sort of I think the methods class at that time.  John Bryan was teaching at the program then — he’s the architectural art history person — I think I took a class with him. They were all — I don’t know if they started doing that certificate through the McKissick Museum.

AR: Yeah, they do have a museum certificate.

BH:  Yes and I was working as a guide writer internship at the McKissick Museum.  I’ve worked for someone named (Unintelligible 3:33), who was working at McKissick at that time. She was their survey education coordinator.  I worked there and I know I had Marsha and Bob and Connie…I can’t remember who else I had that fall semester.  Then the spring semester, I had Lacey for his seminar class and Clyde Austin’s historiography class. [Laughs] Which was interesting.

AR:  Oh yeah. Very intense.

BH:  Well, yeah. Well, intense…I don’t know how I would describe that class but I took more of the straight history classes in the spring of that first year.

AR: Then the following year, did you start your internship or had you always had your graduate assistantship from the beginning?

BH:  I worked at McKissick through — I started in the fall and worked there through the end of the summer. Then I did an internship of the Historic House Museums, which at that time were run by an organization called The Richland County Preservation Commission.  Now, it’s Historic Columbia foundation but at that time there was this weird battle between the two organizations. They both existed and this group was running the historic houses. I did an internship there and then started working there that fall. I didn’t…

AR: It was the Hampton Preston?

BH: It was the Robert Mills House, Hampton-Preston Mansion, Woodrow Wilson (Unintelligible 4:50) Home , and the Mann-Simons Cottage . I had an internship there and then worked there the rest of the time I was in grad school and that’s actually where I ended up…I got my first full-time job there.

AR: Oh really!

BH: Mhmm. But then by that point it was Historic Columbia again and it was very…it was really strange…the tension between those two organizations, which now years later you can obviously tell it’s resolved.

AR: Oh okay. You know growing pains…I guess.

BH: There were a lot of growing…yes, there were a lot of growing pains at that time.

AR: Is there anything distinct you remember about your experience working with them as an intern? Or information that was useful to you that you carried with you still?

BH: When I was an intern there I was actually interning with the woman who was ahead of the collections. We went around a lot and dusted off (Unintelligible 5:37). Cleaned the…I had to clean the houses — that was a part of my job, which was as every bit as exciting as that sounds. Highly more relevant is when I started working which I did as a student and then full-time when I worked in their education department…and eventually became the volunteer coordinator. I think those skills have been really important going forward in just regular work. When you volunteer it’s a whole different set of challenges and how you relate to them, how you treat people. I think that was a really useful early job.

AR: As you’re working with Historic Columbia and do that whole process through the organization, you’re still taking graduate classes?

BH: I took…I finished my main coursework…I started in the fall of ’92 and I wanted to say I finished my main coursework in the winter of ’90…let’s see ’92, ’93…and ’93, ’94…probably the winter of ’95. Then I started working full-time before I finished my master’s thesis, which I think happens to some people.

AR:  Well, I mean it’s life.

BH: It’s life and then I was working at Historic Columbia full-time and not working on a master’s thesis and then I started working here…at the summer of ’97. I think (Unintelligible 6:58) called me and said, “If you don’t finish, you’re gonna have to start revalidating your classes. You need to finish your master’s thesis.” I did because I was working at USC — I could do it for free cause when you work at USC you can take up to one course free a semester. I used that as my credit. I finally got my degree…in the winter. I think it was the winter of ’97. That’s when I actually officially got the master’s degree.

AR: What about people in your cohort? Some of your classmates…do you still keep in touch with some of them? Or…

BH: I do. I had a couple…we had a group of really close friends. When…in my year…on Facebook I’m friends with more than probably five or six…I’m still in close touch with (Unintelligible 7:44-45), who is probably one of my best friends when I was in graduate school. We were in each other’s weddings. She actually lives in Nigeria now. We’re still in pretty close touch. I was also really good friends with a woman named Kim (Unintelligible 7:59) whose…she was not in the public history program and she was in the PhD track and she’s a professor at Baylor. I’m in quite close touch with them all around. (Unintelligible 8:07) I was really good friends with) who’s at the national park service…and then (Unintelligible 8:11) who I’m still in touch with on Facebook. (Unintelligible 8:14). There’s a few…

AR: Lots of people.

BH: Facebook helps obviously.

AR: That’s great.

BH: We all had a really good group…had a really fun time. [Laughs] Some people start moving away. I ended up living here cause I got my husband. We got married and we stayed in Columbia.

AR: He is from South Carolina?

BH: He grew up in Charleston…and he had come here…well, I actually met him in grad school too. He was in the master’s teaching program.

AR: Oh okay. Was he a teacher?

BH: He was and then he became an assistant principal…an assistant principal at Ridgeview and Spring Valley. Now, he’s in the district office. School district two…he’s at Richland Two.

AR: Okay. That’s nice. I just saw they’re building a really nice…

BH: He’s in that building…right behind sandhills. They’re district offices. Sort of an alternative high school thing and then there’s gonna be a branch of the public library in there too. That’s where his office…they already moved the offices in there.

AR: Was there an initial culture shock for you when you came to…

BH: Yes. [Laughs] There was. Yeah, there definitely was. I mean in different ways. I had gone to ….to a very…I mean my college, Allegheny — there were two thousand students total. It was very small. Moved here which was a huge university. I mean at Allegheny would register for classes by writing things on a piece of paper and dropped them in a wooden box. Then at USC at the time, they had this phone system called TIPPS and you had to…you had a time you could call…you start calling to register. Sometimes, I hadn’t registered or hadn’t applied to something soon enough. I had to go over to the Elephant Room at the old colosseum and register.

AR: Really?

BH: Yeah, it was the first week I was here…I had moved here in August and I lived in an apartment on Gibbs Crt., which is right next to Capstone. There was really…a super nice apartment. I thought, — Oh, I could just walk over there and of course, it’s like a hundred degrees — humid. I grew up in Cleveland and it almost never goes above…occasionally it will go above ninety but that’s unusual.

AR: Wow.

BH: Oh my gosh. I was roasting. Of course, I had to take my ID photo cause I did all that down there at that time too.

AR: Oh man. (Unintelligible 10:24 — two speakers talking at the same time)

BH: Yeah. I thought why have I moved here. Yeah, it was a culture shock. Of course, other students in the program were from different places but Columbia is…but Columbia in 1992 is a lot different from…you grew up here you probably know some of that.

AR: Well, yeah. No. I grew up here. I considered it my hometown but I didn’t move here until 1999. My early, early years were not here in Columbia.

BH: Yeah but there was nothing in the Vista…essentially. There were a couple things. There were very few really nice restaurants to eat at. Harper’s was the pentacle. [Laughs]

AR: Really?

BH: Yeah. Columbia has changed a ton since. (Unintelligible 11:02-04) Sorry.

AR: That’s okay.

BH:  Columbia has changed a ton since I lived here…for the better really. Sorry.

AR: No problem.

BH: It’s another culture shock too because I had grown up in Cleveland, which is a big city and a very diverse city… in a different way…than Columbia and…it was a culture shock to move here for sure.

AR: I mean you got some great friends.

BH: I stayed there obviously. I obviously like living in Columbia.

AR: It’s a nice place. I love it. You know you got a husband.

BH: That’s right.

AR: A lot of good things came out of that…Columbia.

BH: That’s right. From living here.

AR: …Columbia. If you had to name…I know you mentioned your friend when you guys were in each other’s weddings but if you had to name a professor or one class…just maybe one or two things that you just really enjoyed during the public history program?

BH: Well, I really enjoyed the seminar classes I took with Dr. Ford. My husband and I met in his seminar class. I guess…probably a positive development and with Dr. (Unintelligible 12:17) we went to…up to colonial Williamsburg. Sort of an overnight — we were gone for a couple of days. That was really a memorable trip…and a fun trip in her Historic Sites class. Certainly with…had been taught by Bob and Connie…being here for Bob first year that he was here. [Laughs] He was getting Columbia too. Connie was always such a positive figure. She always…I think she may still do this…headgroups over at her house in the fall every year.

She had a party. A Christmas party. It was…yeah, I really enjoyed the time at the program.

AR: That’s really nice. Let’s talk about your thesis.

BH: Okay.

AR: I actually learned a lot about it because…

BH: Oh, you did. [Laughs]

AR: You know when I think of the Temperance Movement and some of the women who I look at they’re in the late 1800’s…

BH: Right…it’s post-civil war. Yep.

AR: Or progressive era when you think about the Temperance Movement. So, not in the Antebellum period…

BH: Right.

AR: That you normally associated that with…what made you choose the topic? Talk a little bit about it.

BH: Oh gosh. I can hardly remember now. [Laughs] I don’t know. When I was in college we had to do what was called a senior (Unintelligible 13:32) and…which is similar to a thesis and I had done that on a…there’s a group sort of similar called The Shakers from Ohio. I was sort of interested in sort of the progressive the 19th century progressive movements. Honestly, I don’t remember exactly how I got involved in that temperance. I’ve done a paper for Dr. (Unintelligible 13:53), which I sort of started it so I can make into my thesis cause there was enough material at the South Caroliniana Library to do it. I guess I was sort of interested in social and progressive movements of that time period. I was more interested in Antebellum history than the late-nineteenth century history. It seemed like an area that had not been studied…very much.

As you pointed out, most people associate Temperance with late 19th  — early 20th century movements. It was an interesting…it was an interesting research at the Caroliniana because there were a lot of these groups that had log books from their meetings. There was a lot of correspondence between members. It was sort of interesting to see them.

AR: Okay. You finished that…

BH: Finished that…the thesis.

AR: …you had Dr. (Unintelligible 14:45) and Dr. (Unintelligible 14:45) on your committee.

BH: Yes.

AR: That’s what…1998?

BH: It was either ’97 or ’98. I can’t remember…I actually tried to look at the VIP. I couldn’t remember the exact date I had finished cause I had…(Unintelligible 14:55-57) commencement ceremony.

AR: Oh no.

BH: Yeah. It wasn’t there. I don’t know…you used to be able to access your student records and VIP but…I’m not sure you can anymore.

AR: Then you came to USC in ’97?

BH: I started working for USC in July of 1997.

AR: Okay. What were you doing then?

BH: I was working at Historic Columbia full-time. I was the assistant director of education and volunteer coordinator. I just got kind of burned out with it. I mean I had to go to tours, school programs.

AR: (Unintelligible 15:29)

BH: (Unintelligible 15:29) volunteer. I was making very little money. I think my top salary there was twenty-two thousand. [Laughs] Even at that time, it wasn’t that very good. I had done a little bit of grant writing there. Grants to help support programs. I helped the…that…I don’t know if you’re familiar with the little museum at the fire department. Well, they have a small museum in their lobby and I helped them write a grant that started that. They do school programs there. They sort of focused on the history of the fire department but also on fire safety.

AR: Oh well, that’s great.

BH: Yeah. So anyhow I was doing…I had done that. I was like, — Oh, I know how to do that…and grants assistantships. I’ve seen this advertisement on USC job site about a grant position in the department of physics and I thought I would apply for it…cause it was a pay increase. I went and met with the faculty person — his name was Joe Johnson. He’s still around campus. He’s retired. He still does research and he had this pretty extensive group…grant writing group of about twenty employees and so many large grants. I interviewed with him and he offered me the job. I learned quickly that I knew nothing about grants. I knew nothing about the university system. It was a huge learning curve. I ended up working for him for about nine years. I obviously learned a lot in the process and I decided that this was a field that I enjoyed and was pretty good at. I stayed obviously at USC.

AR: Even the physics didn’t deter you at all? [Laughs]

BH: It deter me some because he wasn’t a physicist like doing rocket science or something. He was doing sophisticated computer programming…he’s a mathematical physicist. I’ll tell you a lot of stuff he wrote…I had no idea what he wrote. [Laughs]. What it even was…I probably couldn’t describe it now if my life depended on it. It was interesting. It was a challenge a bunch and that’s something that I continue to like about doing grant research administration is you’re always working with different faculty, different disciplines, learning new things.

After, his operation went dwindling down. I was totally grant-funded at that time which was a little bit nerve wracking. I can see that he wasn’t being as productive as he has been and I thought well, I need to start looking for other jobs. I went…I was in the department of social work as their grants coordinator. Then I went to Super Family Society, which is a grant funded institute here at USC. Then I went to the main office of research six years ago.

AR: What are some of the things that you do now?

BH: I’m the associate director of research and grant development. I help faculty put together really large grant proposals. Generally, a million dollars or more in funding per year. I just finished working on one to the National Institute of Health — that was like sixteen million dollars total. I say I do that. We have internal grant programs here at USC for faculty called the (Unintelligible 18:29) and rise. I manage those. I work with our depart…our office foundation and corporate relations on sort of coordinating responses to certain foundation cost proposals. Our office has a training program for faculty and staff called grant, which is a research administration grant writing.

Courses that we offer. My office does…it’s a pretty big variety of things in support of research administration.

AR: That’s great. I do see that you were rewarded recently for your service.

BH: I was?

AR: To USC.

BH: Oh yes. I was. [Laughs] I was like, — Oh, my gosh. I didn’t even know I got an award. Oh yeah. It was for my ten years. I worked at USC for nineteen years but the first nine years since I was in a grant funding position that doesn’t count towards state service. I got my ten years when I moved to social work, that was a department state job. Yes, our office recognizes the employees.

AR: Well, yeah you’ve done a lot of great work.

BH: It’s an interesting job. It’s different everyday.

AR: Are those grants more so for science, technology…

BH: The really large ones and I know it’s frustration to people. [Laughs].

AR: In the humanities.

BH: Yes. The really big grant money. Those really huge collaborative proposals tend to be instilled…in public health medicine took from NIA or, NSF, or the department of defense. Unfortunately, there aren’t a lot of big…you know really big grant opportunities into that scale in humanities. For the past couple months, our office has been really short-handed. I’m actually helping out. As a research administrator, we’re supposed to help departments submit all proposals. One of the departments I’ve been working with this summer is history. It’s been fun…cause I’ve gotten to interact with some of the newer faculty and work on some of their proposals, which is a nice change of pace from engineering and science and medicine and everything.

AR: Right. Something more approachable.

BH: Exactly. More my field of study.

AR: Do you ever miss it…history, public history?

BH: Yeah, it’s a good question. I mean I loved working at Historic Columbia. I miss it in some ways but I enjoy the job I have now so much that it’s not…I can’t…I’m not sure I really see myself going back to working in public history. Plus, I think in terms of salary and promotion stuff there’s been a lot more opportunities for upward mobility at the university than there would’ve been…especially in our local museums or state agencies.

AR: Small scale operations.

BH: Yeah. Exactly.

AR: Looking back at that I know you probably heard about Humanities or College of Arts and Sciences a bunch of crises that have happened.

BH: Yes. I have heard about that.

AR: There’s been things in the state newspapers…about histories not profitable major and Dr. (Unintelligible 21:31), our chair responded to that.

BH: Oh okay. I’ve seen that but I didn’t see her response but I had seen the story she was in.

AR: She kind of responded saying, — “This is worth wild. Can’t promise you a very lucrative career. No one can really promise you that but what we can promise you is that it will enrich you in some ways.”

BH: Well, — and I think it’s shortsided to think that…the history or other social science or humanities majors can’t be a good or…can’t lead to a good careers. I think when you’re history…you obviously have to be able to write very well and think critically. I think those are skills that can translate to a variety of professions. My husband and I obviously both have pretty good jobs of having been two history majors and he is working now…doing data analysis for the district, which he self-taught himself but I think it’s important when you’re in college and grad school to sort of learn how to learn…and learn how to always be doing new things.

I think honestly the humanities in some ways is better for that. I think that sometimes…this is a generalization…sometimes, engineers and stuff would just tend to look at their…what they know. I think it’s a mistake for people to say, — I don’t want my child to be a history major. I think it’s sad if people are turned away from that…only because people think well I’m not gonna get a good job. I’m not gonna be able to…

AR: Working with grants you have to be very forward. I guess you got to be thinking about the future and how will things have  a particular impact. How would you envision the future of the public history program? There are some traditional elements from when you were here but…

BH: Right. I know it’s…No, I’m sorry. Go on.

AR: Well, I’m just saying what would be the future that you would envision?

BH: I certainly hope the program…first of all…continues. [Laughs]. I think it’s a shame that they got rid of the…archives track…because the people I knew when I was in school who were in that track all have really good jobs. They’re very employable. I mean in a lot of not just universities but companies and other organizations have any for archivists. A.) I think that was a shame that was eliminated. I also think that public history could maybe do more in teaching…personally, I think course in grant writing should be required.

When I was here my first year Lynn Robertson at McKissick. We had…she taught a course that was sort of a combination of public history or applied history program…which we called it then. The certificate program and we did have to write sort of prepare a grant and we worked on teams and groups in the class but that was just one component of that class. Even if you go and work for a museum or a non-profit or a national park service, that’s one major way to get revenue or money for your organization. I think doing some things like that so that people have a range of marketable skills.

That’s something the program perhaps can do but I hope now there’s been…I know there’s a little bit of tension in the department about the program. I think it would be a real shame if the program didn’t continue as current…at least as its current form.

AR: Did that kind of exist when you were in the program?

BH: I think that it existed to the extent that the traditional PhD students really look down their noses at us. [Laughs]. To some…there many who didn’t but there were some PhD students who thought we were sort of the…the stepchildren of the history department, which was ridiculous cause we took the same courses and we also had to do (Unintelligible 25:15) — had to do a full thesis, it wasn’t like we were doing some truncated version of a degree. It’s the same as a regular history master’s degree. A little bit to some extent I think that existed. I never understood why the history department hasn’t on campus, it doesn’t market the program better.

I taught people and people say, — you have a masters degree. I’ll say, — yes, in public history and they’ll say, — where? I say, — oh, from here. Even faulty around campus would say I didn’t even know we had that program. I think that’s a shame. I think the department should see it as a big asset that USC has a public history program. When I was in and when I was looking at programs there weren’t very many. You know Delware had one. There was one in Cooperstown. The one here. I didn’t want to live in Cooperstown. I didn’t want to live in Western Pennsylvania for four years. Now, a lot more hipsters sprung up…back then there weren’t many options.

AR: Well, is there anything else that I’m missing or you want to share…about your experiences?

BH: Gosh, I don’t know as I said earlier I had a great experience when I was in grad school here. I met a lot of people. Had a lot of really good…experiences and we went down to Charleston…it’s the start of the Charleston field school. Yeah, it was a great program that I think even though I’m not in public history obviously. I still think it prepared me for the career I ended up having. It was definitely has been a positive…nothing but a positive part in my life.

AR: I’m so glad to hear that…and I’ll ask you one more question.

BH: Okay.

AR: In terms of diversity and demographics in terms of women, men, students of color…were there a lot of that in your class?

BH: Gosh. I don’t think there were any students of color in our group. There and in terms of male and female…there were more women than men…which. [Laughs]. I was twenty-two and my friend Jane as I mentioned earlier, of course she was twenty-three and we were looking around and we were like where’s all the guys? [Laughs]. (Unintelligible 27:42) was one of the few guys. There were a couple others but I mean it was more female. Yeah, it was not…it was unfortunately not a very diverse group…not at all.

AR: Do you have recommendations on ways public history might become diverse or…?

BH: Well, hopefully it’s become more diverse in twenty something years than it was than…it was then…maybe not. Yeah, I don’t know. I think it’s…I hope faculty in different universities can…you know when they’re advising undergraduates about different career paths could advise people to go into public history because certainly that’s changed for the better is a much greater awareness of diversity and history and historic sites. When I started working at Historic Columbia…there were a lot of older southern women…volunteers with a certain view of history and they wanted to betray that especially the Hampton-Preston. The sort of moonlight…magnolias…gone with the wind and we tried to change…effect change in that when I was there and I know they made tremendous changes in the way that house is interpreted. The (Unintelligible 28:58)  and even talking about slavery in all of the sites, which twenty something year ago I think still seemed cutting edge…which now it’s not which is good. There’s been diversity in the sense of an increase in awareness of portraying all history. Hopefully that can lead to a rich diversity and people who work in public history sites as well because…as strange to think about but it wasn’t really that long ago but that was a long time ago. Certainly. [Laughs].

I’m sure you were like an infant…or not even born yet. The group…I’m trying to think of everybody in our group. It was predominantly women and there were more men in the PhD.

AR: Oh really?

BH: Yeah.

AR: Actually, I think those numbers are not the same. I think there’s more women in the public history program than more men.

BH: In fact my friend Kim…there weren’t that many…female PhD students at that time. She was one of only a couple. Some of the PhD guys weren’t expecting. There weren’t exactly people…you want to socialize with. Some of them were but there were a few that were…you’re looking and you’re like U.S. history is not a good choice. Not that was the reason I was going to  grad school to meet someone.

AR: It worked out in the end.

BH: Yep, it was a really good experience and I still keep in touch with Connie some. I see her around town occasionally. I see Bob every once in a while.

AR: That’s wonderful. I just feel enriched just hearing your experience.

BH: Yep…it was a good experience. The first couple months I lived here it was tough.

AR: You had to make an adjustment.

BH: Yeah. It was definitely an adjustment.  It was an adjustment to have come to a big university after gone somewhere really small for undergraduate.

AR: Much different.

BH: I just need to hear it Bruce…I mean not that I would talk to you but after you talked to Bruce Harvey…it would be…

AR:  I’m definitely gonna mention.

BH: He won’t know who I am. I know who he is because I heard his name so many times.

AR: He’s a photographer now. He photographs different historic sites and things.

BH: Oh really. That’s interesting.

AR: He’s still I guess kind of working on history a little bit.

BH: I think he wrote a book or something. I don’t know. I could be wrong. I might be remembering that wrong.

AR: I have to look into that.

[Laughter]

BH:  Research it. He had the same path as me. He went to Allegheny and then came here.

AR: Great connection.

BH: I’m sure he had a culture shock too when he first moved to Columbia. Until about December and then it’s like oh I live somewhere that’s so beautiful and wild. I haven’t moved back.

AR: Thank you so much.

BH: Oh, you’re welcome. I enjoyed talking.

AR: I really appreciate it.

BH: It’s my pleasure.  I enjoyed talking about it.

Interview Ends: 32:12